So why was there some mention in an ADVrider thread about a guy sticking CRF450 forks on one and finding improvement?

My big point in most cases has more to do with the harping on ADVrider about "why don't the Japanese make a bike like the KTM. My sales experience says because those guys won't pay the price, which would be on par with the KTM, it isn't any cheaper for the Japanese to do it than it is for KTM, witness the costs of the MX and true enduros from the big five - pretty much near the same. Every time I ask if those guys who are harping would pay a price equal to a KTM for a Japanese bike that is equal to the KTM they say if they pay KTM prices they want a KTM - I rest my case... and that is also what we experienced on the sales floor.

You can prove me wrong, would you buy a Japanese 400 or 450 that is on par with the KTM for a price that is also on par?

History on the sales floor in the 90s showed us the Japanese bike customer wouldn't pay a grand more for a KLX650 over the lesser performing KLR650 or $500 more over the XR650L. We'd always sell the KLR first too, due to the pricing. I believe the same rang true with the KLX450, WR450F, and the CRF450X. The guys buying the Japanese bikes just won't pay the price and the guys that would pay the price for a Euro bike will not pay what it costs to make the Japanese equivalent.

Although Yamaha might start "knocking at the door" since their WR250R seems to get closer in all around performance while coming in about $3000 less than the KTM350EXC. A bigger bore and it would be interesting to see what transpires. You can get a good suspension set up for $3000! I think the lack of a KTM250EXC helped give the incentive. Still, I just don't see it happening with a 450 unless Yamaha cuts some corners to bring it in around $2000 under KTM.

And I'm also betting more CRF and KLX 250s get sold than WR250Rs due to the pricing.

 

....husaberg fe650 seems pretty cool too...

 

Husaberg FE650E !! I went down and bought one off the showroom in '08 when they announced they wouldnn't make em anymore. It's been my main ride since - 6 years now.

 

OK...a good cat fight...or is it a dog fight?...or is it even a fight?...LOL! Well, knowing you fairly well, I think we like to debate certain issues about bikes. It's kind of fun. Don't do that with dan888, however. He gets his feelings hurt quite easily. Where is that guy? I kind of miss his humor.

Anyway, back to the fray. OK, on the Honda fork on the KTM scenario, I'd suggest the guy didn't know how to set up his WP fork on the KTM. It's nothing unusual at all on any competition bike, Japanese or European, to require a fork revalve, respring, or otherwise to suit specific riders at times. Changing a WP fork for a Showa or KYB seems a little overkill when an effective revalve or such seems to get the job done for even some of the best and most discerning pros. I'm even shocked when I pick up an off road/MX motorcycle magazine that doesn't have something negative to say about the suspension performance on the best dirt bikes out there...at least as far as the suspension as delivered on the new bike.

The issue of pricing and performance quality is a tough issue to debate. What I think you're seeing in those debates over in ADV about this Japanese DS vs KTM DS bikes, are two distinctly different camps. On one side you have people who want and need a fully street legal bike that is extremely capable in rough off road conditions, and on the other side you have people who want and need a fully street legal bike but don't need to pay for such high off road performance in either engine or suspension categories. The later outnumber the former, so it's easy to see why bikes like the KLX and WRR sell reasonably well. Still, once one realizes that there are two different categories of users with notably different needs and priorities, I think we can see why each camp tries to poo-poo the other camp's choices. At least in a new-to-new bike buying scenario, you pay more for the KTM, but you arguably get more in the KTM. And if you need that level of performance, weight reduction, and application, the KTM is worth the money.

KTM has filled the niche that the Japanese have pretty much "let go". If the Japanese had been slugging it out with each other in the KTM-style category of EXC bikes, I doubt KTM would be doing as well as they are now. But since they didn't, KTM has reaped the rewards of building some really great bikes. A 351 KLX is not a KTM350EXC and never will be...no matter how much money you throw at it. I like my KLX. It is what it is and gets the job done fairly competently.

 

You don't understand the envy I have right now

 

I was just out in my shop putting a new back tire on my Montesa 4RT trials bike. Thinking I had too many bikes, but then as they haven't made the perfect allround motorcycle yet so I will keep my herd.

I helped a good friend put CRF forks on his KTM 450 could be the guy mentioned above[or not]. He was a "A" enduro rider and expert motocrosser also.


I have a YZ, KLX, XL, XJ, EXC, CRF and the trials bike none are the best but they do different things well. Go try all the bikes you can then get the one that fits you best.

 

You know the Japanese manufacturers didn't really tread on the true Harley look until after HD got congress to pass the tariff on the bikes over 750cc. There was the old (new at that time) Japanese custom represented by the tight coupled Viragos and Shadows. The manufacturers kind of stayed away... until 1986, three years after HD got the legislation (can you say "design time"). That seemed to have thrown the barn door open. Honda built the very Harley like 86 Honda Shadow with the long wheel base, kicked out forks, and the staggered duals. Others soon followed and then the Yamaha 1600 was darn near a clone. Of course the classic and cruiser market was and still is huge.

I doubt this kind of legislation would ever occur with the Euro bikes, plus the market is too small. I also believe there is some EPA/DOT standards allowances for the smaller companies to give them a financial break the larger companies don't need. I don't know if the Japanese could pull the performance if they had higher emissions standards to meet, and it would add weight too.

Personally I hope the Japanese don't go head to head with KTM until KTM is closer to the level they are. It would damage the competition and improvement of the bike development in motorcycling in general. It was kind of that way with BMW until BMW recently hit stride.

I'd love to see the Japanese build a slightly lower level 450, below the well equipped KTM, though. As everyone yells for, an upgraded version of the DRz. Same rock solid reliability with minimal maintenance attention as that of the KLX/WR/DRz for a couple thou less than the KTM, sacrificing some suspension quality (but fixable) some weight, to meet the price to sell. Let KTM take the "Lexus" dual sport if you know what I mean - top notch equipment at top notch price. Make the bike for us "Toyota" riders.

I will say KTM producing in India with about 47% Bajaj ownership/investment might change up things in the near future though. Depends on what comes out of there. We might just see KTM moving toward the KLX/WR/CRF market and they will end up with the same quality/weight compromises if they try. I kind of doubt we will see a $9600 350EXC drop to $7200 Indian 350EXC and maintain the same level of quality/weight. It also might "drop the gloves" like Harley's tariff legislation did with the cruiser/custom market.

 

You mean your Hontesa?

Just teasin'.

I wish someone had kept the Bultaco name alive, like Sherco started, but dropped. Of course Hugh's owns the trademark in the US, making it pretty much impossible to have them back here.

 

Lol, yep that is what my trials buds call them also. I'm glad Honda got in there with them I feel safe going more than a mile from the truck now. I'm still a bit leery about some of the euro brands. Altho I think that they are just as dependable as any thing else now days. Maicobreako, blowtaco come to mind. Can't forget the BSA ignition.

 

I just wish I coulda also bought the last new KTM 950 Super Enduro they had next to my FE650E - But I could only afford one back then and the 'Berg had a better HP/LB ratio...

No need to feel envy Matt. It's only about 72 Hp and 238 lbs..