Just jet it, change the gears and add a full Muzzy. For the win. hehehehe (pot stirer)

 

Just wait for it.
KTM 390 ADV, built in India...
It will happen. KTM wants all riders to go orange.
Honda's resurgence in the Dakar has lit a fire under KTM's butt, IMO to take the whole ADV market.

 

It's not just Honda. Yamaha is hot on their heels with the YZ250x and YZ450FX. Both are amazing woods bikes. There was a decent waiting list for one at my local powersports shop and a buddy just got his - says it's one of the best bikes he's ridden in a long time.

More and more places are requiring registration and licensing of offroad vehicles now as well. I'm optimistic we'll see a resurgence of dual-sport sales that will encourage the mfg's to put some more modern tech into these old bikes... most japanese dual sports haven't changed in 10 years. KTM has some great light weight offerings... but the maintenance and parts are the ****s, plus the price is hard to justify.

 

If KTM comes in with a low buck solid 390 you will see the Japanese maybe do battle.

Thing is KTM can only get so "cheap" before they are either at the same point as a CRF or less reliable. One or the other. It costs money to be at the level the KTMs are at with the Austrian bikes, it won't happen with the Indian ones.

The thing that will drive the issue will be all the junk people hang on their dual sports. You can't have a deluxe light frame without having a weaker frame or a significantly more expensive frame. They didn't have to worry about that with their sport and naked 390s.

Let's hope it pushes the Japanese to kick out some good new stuff.

 

Nonsense on all points. Japanese companies have been manufacturing motorcycles in other countries for a long time and there's no indication that quality has suffered. The venerable -- and mostly bulletproof -- KLR650 has been made entirely in Thailand for probably a decade or more without falling to pieces. In fact, both my former KLR650 and heavyweight Vulcan 1600 had "made in Thailand" VIN stickers. Do you think companies like Kawasaki or KTM just send an email overseas and say, "Hey, make a 390cc motorcycle with our name on it and send it over to us."? Harley-Davidson, BTW, also seems to think India is a perfectly satisfactory place to build some of theirmotorcycles.

The frame comment is also largely without merit. Are you seriously claiming that there is a difference between the frames on the road-use-only KLX supermoto and the dual-sport 250S? If so, please specify which components or design elements differ. And since when did frame failure become a significant problem? Even flogging my overweight, spindly-framed old Suzuki enduro in the rocky desert of northern Mexico the last thing I worried about was the frame. Cactus spines in the tires (and a couple of time in my legs) but not the frame was my principal concern.

Don't make stuff up just to support your position. And try to avoid the implied racism that Indians cannot make a quality product. Pretty much every motor vehicle sold in every country is an international product either in components or assembly. I'm surprised you don't know that.

 

You're joking, right? "Implied racism"? Seriously? If I say the American companies cannot produce a vehicle compared to a Porsche, I'm racist??

If a company farms out production to the lowest bidder, say the Irish, and people say that as such, they are racist?

Your other points hold validity, but that last part, my friend, is BS.

 

Well, let's parse this out. Without even seeing the bike you pronounce it likely inferior to the Austrian product because.....ummm.....well, it's made in India, a country with lower production costs. By non-Austrians who demand lower wages, which is why it costs less to make and thus to sell. Your assumption that "made in India" will result in a drop in quality as opposed to "made in Austria" without any other evidence or specific information as to the quality of components, manufacturing facility, workers or anything else besides the price leads to a pretty obvious conclusion -- that you assume Indians are not up to meeting the Austrian standard of quality.

If price alone is your gold standard for evaluating quality are you saying that H-D or BMW makes a better product overall than Honda? Having owned both a Harley Electra Glide and a BMW R1150GS I would beg to differ. In fact I will cheerfully admit to a bias against German-made things based on my personal experience with the BMW. That may not be nice (you may call it racist if you like) but it is at least better supported in actual experience than your unfair assumption. An Indian-made KTM may well be a step up from the Teutonic model. I think there is a VERY good chance of that, in fact. But unlike you I will withhold judgement until the vehicle proves itself one way or the other.

 

Again, you raise good points! But while you are raving at me, you even failed to realize that I am, in fact, not the original poster, so, Unlike YOU, I'm not going to go off on you. I was just pointing out that calling someone,anyone, racist, for saying that normally the lowest rock bottom bidder will have an inferior product, whether they are Indian, Chinese, Canadian, American, or whatever, is normally bang on. Could be quality control, unskilled work force, or poor R&D.

I agree, I am not a fan of Harley's or BMW's, but that, in no way, makes me racist against Americans or Germans.

Anyways, I'm not going back and forth, I was just pointing out my point of view.

Have a great Day.

 

Perhaps you didn't see the quotes around "cheap". That is apologizing for the term, but it would be the one used in most cases. It has nothing to do with quality, but rather price. The only racism is in your mind and due to your apparent lack of understanding of industry and manufacturing. I never once implied the quality wasn't there other than that one "cheap" as opposed to "lower cost". Nike buiilds a good shoe, but where do they make it? Honda needs a price point bike, where do you think they will tool up and build it - and what will they put on it for equipment.

On the sub-frame comment you clearly had your opinion set against understanding anything I wrote. Otherwise you would see it is about how if building to a price point and for the market, KTM will need to build a stronger - can you say heavier - rear sub-frame. I never once made a comment about the actual KLX sub-frame, (but by then you were seeing red) only that many KLX riders that might buy a bargain priced KTM will be the ones that load the bike down. KTM can't scrimp on weight where it will be needed for strength. There goes a few pounds of that weight advantage.

A fair amount of the weight and performance benefit in the quality in the KTM costs money. You don't see the highest tech forks or even remotely near them on the KLX or the CRF. You also see what it costs when you do put better suspension bits and a partial alloy frame with the $6600 WR250R. Building to a price point. If KTM wants to compete, come in around $4500-5000 they will do the same. The brakes on their road going 390s are not Brembo, but rather made by an Indian subsidiary of Brembo. Clearly the reason is pricing. It costs less to build in India. Pretty simple economics now, isn't it? They do all their top products in Europe, much as Showa and Kayaba do theirs in Japan (or maybe in the US with Showa, over in Sunbury with their R&D dept to which they just doubled the space).

In addition I don't care who or where, lower cost labor is lower cost labor. That is part of the reason why KTM went to India for their small bikes for sure and why Honda and others are in other countries. Of course there is also the point some companies like Honda will to - build where it sells a lot. Kind of like Honda in Central Ohio. Avoids currency fluctuation issues in that market. Can you say "competitive".

There is a reason for building in countries where the labor is less costly. Quality is purely up to what the management will enable the employees to build. I came out of an engineering and quality background in industry, I saw first hand exactly what I am saying there. I also have seen the whole thing with the off shoring, the main reason is purely money. That was learned by Duke University when they did a study covering 50 of the top 100 companies off shoring engineering. The survey was designed so it was essentially "blind" the survey taker has no real idea what it is intending to learn. It came down to money. They still saw the US engineers as the most innovative and on par with the best in the world, but they could get the work done for half the price over seas. Fact - the owner of the cutting tool company where I worked was approached by some Indian manufacturing reps and told they could make his product for 20% of what he was spending. He told them to get lost, that wouldn't give a living wage, although actually it was because he liked having his thumb on the company. I have had several foreign reps contact me to get me to have them make my tensioners. They don't have a clue how small I am in product made and sold.

Only knock I've ever heard on any company when it comes to quality has everything to do with what the ownership and management will allow to be done.

 

I find it kind of funny you talk about nonsense when you have all the comments about the KTM dual sport and it isn't finalized yet. The most recent comment found in a quick google search is June 17 2015. So face it, you don't know what the final product will be any more than I.

Kawasaki/KTM/Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha quality won't suffer if they build for quality, but the bikes are built to a price point, high or low. That price point will dictate what happens. You'd realize that if you actually looked at as many bikes as I had over the years, being in motorcycle sales full and part time for 22 years.

The Brazillian built Yamahas looked really bad compared to their other off roaders. Just poor design when it came to fit. It looked like a parts bin bike that didn't fit particularly well. It was reliable as a rock, but looked bad. Hardly a worker issue. Another example that was pointed out once - short cut in finish. Honda would grind only the part of their cast brake lever that would show, then chrome it. Harley would finish all surfaces. Most Honda bikes had paint with orange peel in it, but not the Gold Wing, which I believe was buffed out, as are ALL Harley paint jobs. Which are building to a lower price point?

Perhaps you didn't see the quotes around "cheap". That is kind of apologizing for the term, but it would be the one used by many people in most cases. It has nothing to do with quality, but rather price.

It is about building to a price point. What makes you think KTM can build an extremely superior product at the same price as Honda or Kawasak, two companies that dwarf KTM in over all size? To build at a price point of $4500 Honda had to go to non-adjustable suspension, cutting cost from where the Kawasaki was with full adjustable rear shock and one way damping adjustable front fork, both gave up on higher performance and alloy frames to keep price low. All three sacrifice higher quality and lighter weight material to stay priced below the current KTMs. No top shelf Brembo calipers, no MX/enduro competition quality suspension, little or no titanium (except Yamaha valve) or magnesium parts, and no high state of tune (they know most of their customer base, Yamaha gets a comment on harder to ride and peakier power every time).

The only racism is in your mind and due to your apparent lack of understanding of industry and manufacturing. I never once implied the quality wasn't there other than that one "cheap" as opposed to "lower cost". Nike buiilds a good shoe, but where do they make it and why? Honda needs a low price point bike, where do you think they will tool up and build it - and what will they put on it for equipment.

On the sub-frame comment you clearly had your opinion set against understanding anything I wrote. Otherwise you would see it is about how if building to a price point and for the market, KTM will need to build a stronger - can you say heavier - rear sub-frame. I never once made a comment about the actual KLX sub-frame, (but by then you were seeing red) only that many KLX riders that might buy a bargain priced KTM will be the ones that load the bike down. KTM can't scrimp on weight where it will be needed for strength. There goes a few pounds of that weight advantage.

A fair amount of the weight and performance benefit in the quality in the KTM costs money. You don't see the highest tech forks or even remotely near them on the KLX or the CRF. You also see what it costs when you do put better suspension bits and a partial alloy frame with the $6600 WR250R. Building to a price point. If KTM wants to compete, come in around $4500-5000 they will do the same. The brakes on their road going 390s are not Brembo, but rather made by an Indian subsidiary of Brembo. Clearly the reason is pricing. It costs less to build in India. Pretty simple economics now, isn't it? They do all their top products in Europe, much as Showa and Kayaba do theirs in Japan (or maybe in the US with Showa, over in Sunbury with their R&D dept to which they just doubled the space).

In addition I don't care who or where, lower cost labor is lower cost labor. That is part of the reason why KTM went to India for their small bikes for sure and why Honda and others are in other countries. Of course there is also the point some companies like Honda will to - build where it sells a lot. Kind of like Honda in Central Ohio. Avoids currency fluctuation issues in that market. Can you say "competitive".

There is a reason for building in countries where the labor is less costly. Quality is purely up to what the management will enable the employees to build. I came out of an engineering and quality background in industry, I saw first hand exactly what I am saying there. I also have seen the whole thing with the off shoring, the main reason is purely money. That was learned by Duke University when they did a study covering 50 of the top 100 companies off shoring engineering. The survey was designed so it was essentially "blind" the survey taker has no real idea what it is intending to learn. It came down to money. They still saw the US engineers as the most innovative and on par with the best in the world, but they could get the work done for half the price over seas. Fact - the owner of the cutting tool company where I worked was approached by some Indian manufacturing reps and told they could make his product for 20% of what he was spending. He told them to get lost, that wouldn't give a living wage, although actually it was because he liked having his thumb on the company. I have had several foreign reps contact me to get me to have them make my tensioners. They don't have a clue how small I am in product made and sold.

Only knock I've ever heard on any company when it comes to quality has everything to do with what the ownership, design, and management will allow to be done. By the way do you get the idea of building to a price point yet?