Ferry Replaces Injured Stewart
#11
08-28-2007, 02:58 AM
RE: Ferry Replaces Injured Stewart
RC a part timer? Anyone who follows MX even a little bit knows RC doesn't do anything part time. He is always trained up and in the best shape and more prepared than anyone. Even in his "retirement". Just look at MX this year - no one could touch RC, though JS came the closest with a few moto wins and they split the points at some races, but RC invariably took the overall. That doesn't happen from a "part timer", sorry, no one is that good if they aren't staying on the program.
But it was RC himself that said James has taken the sport to a new level and he (RC) had to change his riding style to go faster in order to keep up and remain in the lead. That's pretty high praise coming from the G.O.A.T.
Yes, I absolutely put JS in among the greats. And I'm pretty sure they do, too.
And no, I don't think Villopoto, Allessi, Townley, Millsaps, or any of the up and comers will have much for JS. At least not for a few years. Everyone's all excited about how close the MX season is now with both RC and JS out. But lets not forget that JS and RC are lapping up to around 6th place and more often than not with 30 to 40 second gaps on 2nd place. And that is with doing nik-naks and a arm pumps in celebration on that last lap, not even riding hard.
JS is the best indoors, RC is the best outdoors, w/JS a very close second, and the rest are a very distant ..... third. If CR is racing, he's about mid-way between RC & JS and the rest of the pack. So you could say that CR is in a class by himself, it's just not up front.
But it was RC himself that said James has taken the sport to a new level and he (RC) had to change his riding style to go faster in order to keep up and remain in the lead. That's pretty high praise coming from the G.O.A.T.
Yes, I absolutely put JS in among the greats. And I'm pretty sure they do, too.
And no, I don't think Villopoto, Allessi, Townley, Millsaps, or any of the up and comers will have much for JS. At least not for a few years. Everyone's all excited about how close the MX season is now with both RC and JS out. But lets not forget that JS and RC are lapping up to around 6th place and more often than not with 30 to 40 second gaps on 2nd place. And that is with doing nik-naks and a arm pumps in celebration on that last lap, not even riding hard.
JS is the best indoors, RC is the best outdoors, w/JS a very close second, and the rest are a very distant ..... third. If CR is racing, he's about mid-way between RC & JS and the rest of the pack. So you could say that CR is in a class by himself, it's just not up front.
#12
08-28-2007, 03:11 AM
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Ferry Replaces Injured Stewart
ORIGINAL: Nobrakes
Yes, I absolutely put JS in among the greats. And I'm pretty sure they do, too.
Yes, I absolutely put JS in among the greats. And I'm pretty sure they do, too.
Still though, don't count out Reed. He rides possessed sometimes and is consistent as hell. He may not win, but he'll get 2nd a lot if not always and that will win you championships when it's Stewart you're racing because inevitably he's gonna wreck and have 2 or so DNF's. Villopoto will run w/Stewart and Reed this year I think if he's even racing SX and not Lites.
#13
08-28-2007, 01:50 PM
RE: Ferry Replaces Injured Stewart
Nobrakes,
Thanks for injecting some fact and reality into the debate.
First of all, let's separate MX and SX. Completely different. We all forget this because RC was so dominant in each, but that is the exception, not the rule. You only have to look back as far as McGrath to realize that.
For SX, JS has to be in the same class as the Hannahs, Barnetts, Baileys, etc. He has almost as many wins in 3 years as Hannah had in his 8-9 year career, and you're not going to win the argument that JS is riding against inferior competition -- and yes, not that it's worth much, but I watched the old timers every year at the Seattle SX in the Kingdome. Reed, RC, Windham, et al. are pretty stout. If you don't like JS's style, or lack thereof, I think that's more of a personal thing and not really indicative of how good he is. Windham is probably the smoothest rider out there and has been for years. Looks like he's riding on butter. He's a prettier rider than even RC is. So, does that mean he's better because of the style points he picks up? I'd rather be fast and ugly and on the podium than slow and pretty and sitting in 5th.
I also wouldn't be so quick to pencil in the 2+ DNFs for Stewart. He didn't have any DNFs last year. He did the previous year, as do many riders in their first season on the 250s, and still barely finished 2nd to RC in AMA and won the TW.
For MX, JS is not as dominant ... but only as compared to RC. His injury this year was a fluke, not so much due to reckless or stupid riding that he was prone to a couple of years ago. Without the injury and with RC's departure, he's the best out there and obviously would have won the championship. But, he didn't and that leaves a gaping hole on his resume. I wouldn't put JS on the all-time list of MXers, yet. He hasn't completed a full season, so we're forever in the "if he didn't get hurt ..." mode.
A few years ago, I would have bought your Villopoto argument. Seemed that those dominant in the 125 class would carry that momentum to the 250 class. But Alessi has sort of turned that on its head. Started on a 250 and grabbed a podium pretty quick. Came back the next year and rode 125s and never did much in SX and was inconsistent in MX -- almost came from behind to win the MX in the Tedesco debacle. But, then, Villopoto owned him last year. Alessi never materialized as great on the 125s and didn't develop much consistency. Though, on the 250s this year, he's much more competitive against more experienced guys. For whatever reason, he just does better on the 250s and, in hindsight, maybe should have never rode 125s. On the flip side, Tedesco hasn't really emerged the way I thought he would, though he has had some nagging injuries. My gut still tells me that Villopoto will be damn good, but it's not a done deal.
Thanks for injecting some fact and reality into the debate.
First of all, let's separate MX and SX. Completely different. We all forget this because RC was so dominant in each, but that is the exception, not the rule. You only have to look back as far as McGrath to realize that.
For SX, JS has to be in the same class as the Hannahs, Barnetts, Baileys, etc. He has almost as many wins in 3 years as Hannah had in his 8-9 year career, and you're not going to win the argument that JS is riding against inferior competition -- and yes, not that it's worth much, but I watched the old timers every year at the Seattle SX in the Kingdome. Reed, RC, Windham, et al. are pretty stout. If you don't like JS's style, or lack thereof, I think that's more of a personal thing and not really indicative of how good he is. Windham is probably the smoothest rider out there and has been for years. Looks like he's riding on butter. He's a prettier rider than even RC is. So, does that mean he's better because of the style points he picks up? I'd rather be fast and ugly and on the podium than slow and pretty and sitting in 5th.
I also wouldn't be so quick to pencil in the 2+ DNFs for Stewart. He didn't have any DNFs last year. He did the previous year, as do many riders in their first season on the 250s, and still barely finished 2nd to RC in AMA and won the TW.
For MX, JS is not as dominant ... but only as compared to RC. His injury this year was a fluke, not so much due to reckless or stupid riding that he was prone to a couple of years ago. Without the injury and with RC's departure, he's the best out there and obviously would have won the championship. But, he didn't and that leaves a gaping hole on his resume. I wouldn't put JS on the all-time list of MXers, yet. He hasn't completed a full season, so we're forever in the "if he didn't get hurt ..." mode.
A few years ago, I would have bought your Villopoto argument. Seemed that those dominant in the 125 class would carry that momentum to the 250 class. But Alessi has sort of turned that on its head. Started on a 250 and grabbed a podium pretty quick. Came back the next year and rode 125s and never did much in SX and was inconsistent in MX -- almost came from behind to win the MX in the Tedesco debacle. But, then, Villopoto owned him last year. Alessi never materialized as great on the 125s and didn't develop much consistency. Though, on the 250s this year, he's much more competitive against more experienced guys. For whatever reason, he just does better on the 250s and, in hindsight, maybe should have never rode 125s. On the flip side, Tedesco hasn't really emerged the way I thought he would, though he has had some nagging injuries. My gut still tells me that Villopoto will be damn good, but it's not a done deal.
#14
08-28-2007, 03:17 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Ferry Replaces Injured Stewart
ORIGINAL: 67L48
Nobrakes,
Thanks for injecting some fact and reality into the debate.
First of all, let's separate MX and SX. Completely different. We all forget this because RC was so dominant in each, but that is the exception, not the rule. You only have to look back as far as McGrath to realize that.
For SX, JS has to be in the same class as the Hannahs, Barnetts, Baileys, etc. He has almost as many wins in 3 years as Hannah had in his 8-9 year career, and you're not going to win the argument that JS is riding against inferior competition -- and yes, not that it's worth much, but I watched the old timers every year at the Seattle SX in the Kingdome. Reed, RC, Windham, et al. are pretty stout. If you don't like JS's style, or lack thereof, I think that's more of a personal thing and not really indicative of how good he is. Windham is probably the smoothest rider out there and has been for years. Looks like he's riding on butter. He's a prettier rider than even RC is. So, does that mean he's better because of the style points he picks up? I'd rather be fast and ugly and on the podium than slow and pretty and sitting in 5th.
I also wouldn't be so quick to pencil in the 2+ DNFs for Stewart. He didn't have any DNFs last year. He did the previous year, as do many riders in their first season on the 250s, and still barely finished 2nd to RC in AMA and won the TW.
For MX, JS is not as dominant ... but only as compared to RC. His injury this year was a fluke, not so much due to reckless or stupid riding that he was prone to a couple of years ago. Without the injury and with RC's departure, he's the best out there and obviously would have won the championship. But, he didn't and that leaves a gaping hole on his resume. I wouldn't put JS on the all-time list of MXers, yet. He hasn't completed a full season, so we're forever in the "if he didn't get hurt ..." mode.
A few years ago, I would have bought your Villopoto argument. Seemed that those dominant in the 125 class would carry that momentum to the 250 class. But Alessi has sort of turned that on its head. Started on a 250 and grabbed a podium pretty quick. Came back the next year and rode 125s and never did much in SX and was inconsistent in MX -- almost came from behind to win the MX in the Tedesco debacle. But, then, Villopoto owned him last year. Alessi never materialized as great on the 125s and didn't develop much consistency. Though, on the 250s this year, he's much more competitive against more experienced guys. For whatever reason, he just does better on the 250s and, in hindsight, maybe should have never rode 125s. On the flip side, Tedesco hasn't really emerged the way I thought he would, though he has had some nagging injuries. My gut still tells me that Villopoto will be damn good, but it's not a done deal.
Nobrakes,
Thanks for injecting some fact and reality into the debate.
First of all, let's separate MX and SX. Completely different. We all forget this because RC was so dominant in each, but that is the exception, not the rule. You only have to look back as far as McGrath to realize that.
For SX, JS has to be in the same class as the Hannahs, Barnetts, Baileys, etc. He has almost as many wins in 3 years as Hannah had in his 8-9 year career, and you're not going to win the argument that JS is riding against inferior competition -- and yes, not that it's worth much, but I watched the old timers every year at the Seattle SX in the Kingdome. Reed, RC, Windham, et al. are pretty stout. If you don't like JS's style, or lack thereof, I think that's more of a personal thing and not really indicative of how good he is. Windham is probably the smoothest rider out there and has been for years. Looks like he's riding on butter. He's a prettier rider than even RC is. So, does that mean he's better because of the style points he picks up? I'd rather be fast and ugly and on the podium than slow and pretty and sitting in 5th.
I also wouldn't be so quick to pencil in the 2+ DNFs for Stewart. He didn't have any DNFs last year. He did the previous year, as do many riders in their first season on the 250s, and still barely finished 2nd to RC in AMA and won the TW.
For MX, JS is not as dominant ... but only as compared to RC. His injury this year was a fluke, not so much due to reckless or stupid riding that he was prone to a couple of years ago. Without the injury and with RC's departure, he's the best out there and obviously would have won the championship. But, he didn't and that leaves a gaping hole on his resume. I wouldn't put JS on the all-time list of MXers, yet. He hasn't completed a full season, so we're forever in the "if he didn't get hurt ..." mode.
A few years ago, I would have bought your Villopoto argument. Seemed that those dominant in the 125 class would carry that momentum to the 250 class. But Alessi has sort of turned that on its head. Started on a 250 and grabbed a podium pretty quick. Came back the next year and rode 125s and never did much in SX and was inconsistent in MX -- almost came from behind to win the MX in the Tedesco debacle. But, then, Villopoto owned him last year. Alessi never materialized as great on the 125s and didn't develop much consistency. Though, on the 250s this year, he's much more competitive against more experienced guys. For whatever reason, he just does better on the 250s and, in hindsight, maybe should have never rode 125s. On the flip side, Tedesco hasn't really emerged the way I thought he would, though he has had some nagging injuries. My gut still tells me that Villopoto will be damn good, but it's not a done deal.
compare resumes between these riders and tell me if you still think JS is "great" or even deserves to be mentioned in the same sentence. McGrath would have spanked JS in his prime in SX.
Jeremy McGrath:
Total Individual Career Championship Titles: 12
[ul][*]250cc Supercross Championships: 7 (1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999 and 2000) [/ul]
[ul][*]125cc Western Region SX Championships: 2 (1991 and 1992) [/ul]
[ul][*]250cc Outdoor MX Championship: 1 (1995) [/ul]
[ul][*]FIM World Championships: 2 [/ul]
[ul][*]Individual Motocross des Nations win: 1 [/ul]
Total Team Career Championship Titles: 2
[ul][*]Motocross des Nations Championships: 2 (1993 and 1996) [/ul]
Total Overall Career Wins: 103
[ul][*]250cc Supercross wins: 74 [/ul]
[ul][*]125cc Western Region SX wins: 13 [/ul]
[ul][*]UltraCross wins: 5 [/ul]
Ricky Carmichael:
Major titles
[ul][*]1997 AMA 125 National Champion (Kawasaki)[*]1998 AMA 125 East Coast SX Champion (Kawasaki)[*]1998 AMA 125 National Champion (Kawasaki)[*]1999 AMA 125 National Champion (Kawasaki)[*]2000 AMA 250 National Champion (Kawasaki)[*]2000 U.S. Open of Supercross (Kawasaki)[*]2000 Motocross des Nations Champion (Team USA) (Kawasaki)[*]2001 AMA 250 Supercross Champion (Kawasaki)[*]2001 AMA 250 National Champion (Kawasaki)[*]2001 U.S. Open of Supercross (Honda)[*]2002 AMA 250 Supercross Champion (Honda)[*]2002 AMA 250 National Champion (Honda)[*]2003 AMA 250 Supercross Champion (Honda)[*]2003 AMA 250 National Champion (Honda)[*]2004 AMA 250 National Champion (Honda)[*]2005 AMA 250 Supercross Champion (Suzuki)[*]2005 AMA 250 National Champion (Suzuki)[*]2005 WSXGP 250 Supercross Champion (Suzuki)[*]2005 Motocross des Nations Champion (Team USA) (Suzuki)[*]2005 U.S. Open of Supercross (Suzuki)[*]2006 AMA Supercross Champion (Suzuki)[*]2006 AMA Motocross Champion (Suzuki)[*]2006 Racer Of The Year[*]2007 X Games 13 MotoX Gold[*]Only Rider to score perfect season(2002 and 2004 AMA national) [/ul]
James Stewart:[*]2002 AMA 125 National Champion[*]2003 AMA 125 West Supercross Champion[*]2004 AMA 125 East Supercross Champion[*]2004 AMA 125 National Champion[*]2006 FIM WSXGP Supercross Champion[*]2007 AMA Supercross Champion[*]2007 FIM WSXGP Supercross
JS has only one major championship, 2007 SX champ. 125's I don't consider to be major, plus all his 125 victories came after RC moved up to 250.
#15
08-28-2007, 09:42 PM
RE: Ferry Replaces Injured Stewart
You do realize that 2006 was the first full year of SX for Stewart, right? And even then he won the World SX title, and was only 2-points off RC for winning the AMA. That in his 1st year. So you could say that every year he has raced SX so far, he has a championship. WSX in 2006 and WSX and AMASX in 2007. So if he continues like he is doing, however many championships he accumulates will simply depend on how many years he races.
But comparing the number of titles for two riders, one at the beginning of their career and the others at the end of their career seems like apples and oranges to me. You also seem to be missing a lot of stuff that you included for RC, but are missing for JS, i.e., his 2006 MXdN, 2006 US Open winner, and so on. Why do you leave those out for JS but include them for RC? I would suggest that in typical Iowaguy fashion you selectively pick the data that supports whatever view you have and ignore the rest, i.e., twist the fact to support your view rather than shape your view based on the facts.
But whatever. It's clear you don't care for JS and that's cool, but there's no need to make things up or mis-report the facts simply to support your view of the world.
But comparing the number of titles for two riders, one at the beginning of their career and the others at the end of their career seems like apples and oranges to me. You also seem to be missing a lot of stuff that you included for RC, but are missing for JS, i.e., his 2006 MXdN, 2006 US Open winner, and so on. Why do you leave those out for JS but include them for RC? I would suggest that in typical Iowaguy fashion you selectively pick the data that supports whatever view you have and ignore the rest, i.e., twist the fact to support your view rather than shape your view based on the facts.
But whatever. It's clear you don't care for JS and that's cool, but there's no need to make things up or mis-report the facts simply to support your view of the world.
#16
08-29-2007, 03:01 AM
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Ferry Replaces Injured Stewart
ORIGINAL: Nobrakes
You do realize that 2006 was the first full year of SX for Stewart, right? And even then he won the World SX title, and was only 2-points off RC for winning the AMA. That in his 1st year. So you could say that every year he has raced SX so far, he has a championship. WSX in 2006 and WSX and AMASX in 2007. So if he continues like he is doing, however many championships he accumulates will simply depend on how many years he races.
But comparing the number of titles for two riders, one at the beginning of their career and the others at the end of their career seems like apples and oranges to me. You also seem to be missing a lot of stuff that you included for RC, but are missing for JS, i.e., his 2006 MXdN, 2006 US Open winner, and so on. Why do you leave those out for JS but include them for RC? I would suggest that in typical Iowaguy fashion you selectively pick the data that supports whatever view you have and ignore the rest, i.e., twist the fact to support your view rather than shape your view based on the facts.
But whatever. It's clear you don't care for JS and that's cool, but there's no need to make things up or mis-report the facts simply to support your view of the world.
You do realize that 2006 was the first full year of SX for Stewart, right? And even then he won the World SX title, and was only 2-points off RC for winning the AMA. That in his 1st year. So you could say that every year he has raced SX so far, he has a championship. WSX in 2006 and WSX and AMASX in 2007. So if he continues like he is doing, however many championships he accumulates will simply depend on how many years he races.
But comparing the number of titles for two riders, one at the beginning of their career and the others at the end of their career seems like apples and oranges to me. You also seem to be missing a lot of stuff that you included for RC, but are missing for JS, i.e., his 2006 MXdN, 2006 US Open winner, and so on. Why do you leave those out for JS but include them for RC? I would suggest that in typical Iowaguy fashion you selectively pick the data that supports whatever view you have and ignore the rest, i.e., twist the fact to support your view rather than shape your view based on the facts.
But whatever. It's clear you don't care for JS and that's cool, but there's no need to make things up or mis-report the facts simply to support your view of the world.
Oh, and one more thing you so "left out" of your little rant- 2006 wasn't his first full year in SX, 2005 was supposed to be but he crashed againin practice at Phoenix and was injured for the rest of the season and could only muster a 10th place finish in points. but yeah, he is one of the greatest ever right? JS is going to be another Jeff Emig; a great and very fast rider, but who is always in the shadow of someone better, faster, and most importantly smoother- earning his championships simply because his arch enemy isn't there to race against him.
#19
08-29-2007, 11:56 AM
RE: Ferry Replaces Injured Stewart
ORIGINAL: Iowaguy
dude, i just lost all respect for you and i actually sort of liked you.[&o]
dude, i just lost all respect for you and i actually sort of liked you.[&o]
#20
08-29-2007, 12:04 PM
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 12,584
RE: Ferry Replaces Injured Stewart
wow...... didnt mean to start such a contraversial topic....... thaught it was safe... just thaught some of you wou ld like to know........[>:]