Cold starting
#11
11-29-2006, 07:16 AM
RE: Cold starting
Nobrakes,
What do you think is different about how our bike vaporizes gas and how the 'excellent cold starting engine' that Bryantjt was comparing it to vaporizes gas to start so well in any conditions?
How can we get our bikes to work that well under those conditions? (I'm taking an educated guess here that the engine that starts well in the cold is NOT a pumper carb, but rather a traditional carb like ours.)
What do you think is different about how our bike vaporizes gas and how the 'excellent cold starting engine' that Bryantjt was comparing it to vaporizes gas to start so well in any conditions?
How can we get our bikes to work that well under those conditions? (I'm taking an educated guess here that the engine that starts well in the cold is NOT a pumper carb, but rather a traditional carb like ours.)
#12
11-29-2006, 07:18 AM
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Washington
Posts: 21,060
RE: Cold starting
ORIGINAL: jlmillerranch
Ok, I have been lurking way to long here...I too live in Washington State (Buckley Area) where we have had some very cold temps this week. My bike will not start either. The last two times, I have had to push start it from wearing down the battery. When I was a kid I used to take a propane torch and warm the head to start my bike. I have had many other Kawasaki bikes as an adult and not had this problem. I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts and feel like I know some of you even though I have never spoke up.
Jeff Miller
Buckley, Wa
Ok, I have been lurking way to long here...I too live in Washington State (Buckley Area) where we have had some very cold temps this week. My bike will not start either. The last two times, I have had to push start it from wearing down the battery. When I was a kid I used to take a propane torch and warm the head to start my bike. I have had many other Kawasaki bikes as an adult and not had this problem. I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts and feel like I know some of you even though I have never spoke up.
Jeff Miller
Buckley, Wa
Hey Jeff welcome to the forum. Where is Buckley?
#13
11-29-2006, 07:25 AM
RE: Cold starting
im thinking the hard starting when cold is a lean condition... i had this prob also the last time i rode mine when it was below 50 (parked now for the winter) ill know soon enough after i do all my mods if it starts better when cold.
#14
11-29-2006, 07:36 AM
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Washington
Posts: 21,060
RE: Cold starting
ORIGINAL: Nobrakes
Oh yee of limited imagination - I can thing a soooo many things worse than starting fluid. Hmm, maybe hitting it with a hammer, pouring sand into the spark plug hole, running with no oil, hey I'm not even getting warmed up, no pun intended. 
There's nothing wrong with starting fluid when used for what it is intended, i.e., provide a few squirts of fuel that will remain a vapor long enough to actually ignite even when things are very very cold, as opposed to condensing in the intakes like your gasoline is doing. You really have but one choice and that is heat the engine up. You can do that by external heat like your space heater, hair dryer, whatever. Or you can give a squirt of starting fluid which allows the engine to kick itself over a few times which in turn heats it up a bit. How is that possibly going to hurt your engine? Just curious.
ORIGINAL: deej
Oh by the way Starting fluid is the wort thing you can do to an engine. Learned that many many years ago from my stepdad.
Oh by the way Starting fluid is the wort thing you can do to an engine. Learned that many many years ago from my stepdad.
Hmm, maybe hitting it with a hammer, pouring sand into the spark plug hole, running with no oil, hey I'm not even getting warmed up, no pun intended. There's nothing wrong with starting fluid when used for what it is intended, i.e., provide a few squirts of fuel that will remain a vapor long enough to actually ignite even when things are very very cold, as opposed to condensing in the intakes like your gasoline is doing. You really have but one choice and that is heat the engine up. You can do that by external heat like your space heater, hair dryer, whatever. Or you can give a squirt of starting fluid which allows the engine to kick itself over a few times which in turn heats it up a bit. How is that possibly going to hurt your engine? Just curious.
Ok maybe it's not the worst thing, but I heard it can wash past the rings and cause detonation into the crank case. Read on.
When all else fails, ether can be successful in starting an engine when temperatures dip below freezing because it allows cylinder combustion to occur at lower temperatures. Spraying ether into the engine's air intake system is an effective way to quick-start an engine as cold as -10ºF. Ether should only be used while the engine is cranking, and even then, it should be used sparingly. Too much can cause damage to pistons, rings, and valves. Most manufacturers strongly urge against using ether in combination with any sort of block heater (OEM or aftermarket). Because ether is so combustible, spraying it into the intake manifold of a preheated engine can create a fire or an explosion, which can cause serious damage to the vehicle, not to mention severe personal injury or even death.
#15
11-29-2006, 07:45 AM
RE: Cold starting
ORIGINAL: DirtSurfer
Nobrakes,
What do you think is different about how our bike vaporizes gas and how the 'excellent cold starting engine' that Bryantjt was comparing it to vaporizes gas to start so well in any conditions?
How can we get our bikes to work that well under those conditions? (I'm taking an educated guess here that the engine that starts well in the cold is NOT a pumper carb, but rather a traditional carb like ours.)
Nobrakes,
What do you think is different about how our bike vaporizes gas and how the 'excellent cold starting engine' that Bryantjt was comparing it to vaporizes gas to start so well in any conditions?
How can we get our bikes to work that well under those conditions? (I'm taking an educated guess here that the engine that starts well in the cold is NOT a pumper carb, but rather a traditional carb like ours.)
So it is just a matter of extremes - in the extreme cold, even the choke is not enough to get the thing going. The temperature of the fuel itself does play a part, so it's not solely a matter of just getting the fuel in there. When it is cold, gasoline is less volatile and doesn't vaporize as well. Perhaps that hotter spark plug that was mentioned will help with actually igniting the fuel that does manage to reach the chamber as a vapor since it is less volatile at the very cold temps.
But my main point was that starting fluid is a tried and true product for starting engines in cold weather. I've personally used it on bikes in extreme sub-zero weather - like 20 below zero and the stuff is amazing. Just a squirt and the engine will fire up right off, but will usually die pretty quickly, if it is really cold. Give it another squirt and go again - after a few tries you'll be idling fine with the choke on. You'll want to refrain from revving and want warm the bike up though before doing too much since the oil will also be more viscous at those cold temps it won't distribute and lubricate as well until the engine warms up. If you have a very long and cold winter where you live, for the oil reason alone I'd instead recommend some sort of engine heater. But for the occaisonal cold weather starting, IMO, you can't beat starting fluid.
#16
11-29-2006, 07:51 AM
RE: Cold starting
ORIGINAL: deej
Ok maybe it's not the worst thing, but I heard it can wash past the rings and cause detonation into the crank case. Read on.
When all else fails, ether can be successful in starting an engine when temperatures dip below freezing because it allows cylinder combustion to occur at lower temperatures. Spraying ether into the engine's air intake system is an effective way to quick-start an engine as cold as -10ºF. Ether should only be used while the engine is cranking, and even then, it should be used sparingly. Too much can cause damage to pistons, rings, and valves. Most manufacturers strongly urge against using ether in combination with any sort of block heater (OEM or aftermarket). Because ether is so combustible, spraying it into the intake manifold of a preheated engine can create a fire or an explosion, which can cause serious damage to the vehicle, not to mention severe personal injury or even death.
Ok maybe it's not the worst thing, but I heard it can wash past the rings and cause detonation into the crank case. Read on.
When all else fails, ether can be successful in starting an engine when temperatures dip below freezing because it allows cylinder combustion to occur at lower temperatures. Spraying ether into the engine's air intake system is an effective way to quick-start an engine as cold as -10ºF. Ether should only be used while the engine is cranking, and even then, it should be used sparingly. Too much can cause damage to pistons, rings, and valves. Most manufacturers strongly urge against using ether in combination with any sort of block heater (OEM or aftermarket). Because ether is so combustible, spraying it into the intake manifold of a preheated engine can create a fire or an explosion, which can cause serious damage to the vehicle, not to mention severe personal injury or even death.
#17
11-29-2006, 09:49 AM
RE: Cold starting
For a man of few words, Jsac seems to be on target most of the time.
Fuel atomizes better when the bike is warm, so you don't need such a rich mixture. When the bike is cold a good portion of the incoming fuel comes in and sticks to the cold cylinder wall. That is why you need to RICHEN the mixture more when the engine is cold.
I'll ask the question that some of us asked a few days ago. Are you still running with the stock jets? Also, can you get to the fuel/air screw while the bike is running. You could try finding center after you find were it slows down in either direction, then set it a bit in the rich direction without affecting the idle at all.
I thought you said you had some jets on the way. I'll bet the fuel is gelling a bit in your KLX. You'll have to either deal with it taking longer to start or purge the bowl and bring in fresh fuel from the tank.
Fuel atomizes better when the bike is warm, so you don't need such a rich mixture. When the bike is cold a good portion of the incoming fuel comes in and sticks to the cold cylinder wall. That is why you need to RICHEN the mixture more when the engine is cold.
I'll ask the question that some of us asked a few days ago. Are you still running with the stock jets? Also, can you get to the fuel/air screw while the bike is running. You could try finding center after you find were it slows down in either direction, then set it a bit in the rich direction without affecting the idle at all.
I thought you said you had some jets on the way. I'll bet the fuel is gelling a bit in your KLX. You'll have to either deal with it taking longer to start or purge the bowl and bring in fresh fuel from the tank.
ORIGINAL: jsac
im thinking the hard starting when cold is a lean condition... i had this prob also the last time i rode mine when it was below 50 (parked now for the winter) ill know soon enough after i do all my mods if it starts better when cold.
im thinking the hard starting when cold is a lean condition... i had this prob also the last time i rode mine when it was below 50 (parked now for the winter) ill know soon enough after i do all my mods if it starts better when cold.
#18
11-29-2006, 04:02 PM
RE: Cold starting
Guys:
I did submit a post around hard starting a while back and some of the replies were to drain the float bowl if the bike sits for more than a few days. My bike is only used on the weekeneds as it's kept at the lake house. Temps have been cool latley. (low 40's / upper 30's)
When I start the bake after it's been sitting during the week, I slowly pull the choke out while cranking, I find it fires when the choke is almost to the fully open position. ( I may have to cycle the choke more than once ) I found this to work the best after I also killed the battery trying to start it. Then, after sitting over night and getting completely cold and back to the ambient temp, it fires right up the next day even though the bike is cold and not been run for 20 hours. I can't really figure it out either. I do have the #40 pilot and IMS @ 2.0 t.o. I may increase it to 2.5 t.o
I did submit a post around hard starting a while back and some of the replies were to drain the float bowl if the bike sits for more than a few days. My bike is only used on the weekeneds as it's kept at the lake house. Temps have been cool latley. (low 40's / upper 30's)
When I start the bake after it's been sitting during the week, I slowly pull the choke out while cranking, I find it fires when the choke is almost to the fully open position. ( I may have to cycle the choke more than once ) I found this to work the best after I also killed the battery trying to start it. Then, after sitting over night and getting completely cold and back to the ambient temp, it fires right up the next day even though the bike is cold and not been run for 20 hours. I can't really figure it out either. I do have the #40 pilot and IMS @ 2.0 t.o. I may increase it to 2.5 t.o
#19
11-29-2006, 05:00 PM
RE: Cold starting
All good input, thanks.
So what is it about snow blower and other cold weather engines that they appear to be "set up" to handle the cold starting??? are they just over jetted with the pilot jet?? should we use a #45 pilot jet? Does anyone have any expeience with working on snowblowers or snowmobiles??
Also, does it help to use the lower octane gas like 87 vs 93?
thoughts?
So what is it about snow blower and other cold weather engines that they appear to be "set up" to handle the cold starting??? are they just over jetted with the pilot jet?? should we use a #45 pilot jet? Does anyone have any expeience with working on snowblowers or snowmobiles??
Also, does it help to use the lower octane gas like 87 vs 93?
thoughts?
#20
11-29-2006, 05:26 PM
RE: Cold starting
Snow blowers and snomobiles do have winter or cold weather calibrations in them and specifically designed for the application.
As for the fuel, most of us are into the winter belends by now so the octaine won't make much of a difference.
The lst time my KLX started really hard it was 60 degF. I beleive there is someing gong on inside the carb specifically flaot bowl when the bike sits for extended periods ( lets say 5 days ) Just have not been able to figure it out yet, and is frustrating. The bike should start better than that.
As for the fuel, most of us are into the winter belends by now so the octaine won't make much of a difference.
The lst time my KLX started really hard it was 60 degF. I beleive there is someing gong on inside the carb specifically flaot bowl when the bike sits for extended periods ( lets say 5 days ) Just have not been able to figure it out yet, and is frustrating. The bike should start better than that.